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This is a response to: This is where, perhaps, that we disagree. I don't think Steve's "under the radar" game was as important in his win as his social connection
SpaceEVA
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Reged: 08/26/12
Posts: 33657
Yes, we would likely disagree then... looking at the big picture. Vanessa from very early on had built that connection with Steve.
05/20/16 05:37 PM




She had always kept him in mind as a backup scenario. She brought him into the various alliances, she looked out for her asset numerous times throughout. She intentionally tried to keep her connection to Steve separate from others as such.

If he presented himself as the threat he really was, there would be no logical reasoning for Vanessa to invest so much into him as she did. It was his ability to play himself down that allowed for his ultimate deception in the long game. He played himself so far down that even knowing he was playing himself down the extent of it was unknown. A "you think you know, but you don't" sort of thing.

Everything from day 1 to the end plays a part. It doesn't all come down to 1 moment. It's a journey. That one moment can certainly have a drastic effect on the journey but it doesn't singularly define everything in my opinion. There was a lot of things that led and culminated to Steve, Liz and Vanessa being the final 3.

Edited (05/20/16 05:43 PM)

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Subject Posted by Posted on
* Michele won because Aubry and Tai failed at the most important ingredient of winning Survivor. Remember, Jeff has always said what makes
trifecta
05/20/16 11:19 AM
xx * Michelle won because Cydney wanted to lez her up, and the 2 trolls Jason and Scott wanted to suck her boobs. Michelle was awful. NT
Tywyllwch *
05/26/16 09:30 AM
xx * It seems like every season of Survivor and Big Brother anymore
SpaceEVA
05/20/16 04:18 PM
xx * Or it could be that the structure of the game and luck combine to produce less than optimal results.
Blockhead
05/26/16 03:09 PM
xx * That's what I call "The Weakest Link Syndrome" (targeting the best players to eliminate before the finals). For the most part I agree
JAF
06/11/16 07:37 AM
xx * I think the challenges in Survivor do test mental and physical prowess on many levels. In BB, only the endurance comps do that. Most of the comps in
robin0
06/11/16 08:01 AM
xx * I'd agree that Survivor comps are more balanced and well-rounded games of skill. BB is more mixed. Some are skill games (often involving
JAF
06/11/16 10:30 AM
xx * But the thing is they have NO obligation to "reward game play," only to decide who gets the money. NT
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 06:27 AM
xx * True. NT
JAF
06/11/16 07:38 AM
xx * ^ Totally agree. Two schools of thought. 1.) The person who ENTERTAINED me the most should win. 2.) Best player should win. NT
tv_savage
05/26/16 02:36 PM
xx * 3rd school. Those that truly got screwed over. 2 examples...
colleenag
05/26/16 02:42 PM
xx * I really think it depends on the player. My biggest issue with Michele winning is just it doesn't look like she did much, idk it was the edit or
FurlessBat
05/20/16 05:11 PM
xx * I think it's her personality and her way of talking. And she never struggled like Tai & Aubrey, she just made her way to the end. She was less
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 08:27 AM
xx * You answered your own question. she didn't deserve to win. NT
MaddyP
05/21/16 05:15 AM
xx * If that's the case, then none of the 3 deserved to win. They all had deficiencies. Yes, Michele didn't make many strategic moves, but Aubry
JAF
05/21/16 06:29 AM
xx * Well, early on the beauty tribe dominated and they didn't get much airtime beyond Caleb/Tai. The beauty girls had formed an alliance and seemed
SpaceEVA
05/20/16 05:29 PM
xx * Excellent analysis. Not going to TC until Day 22 is a huge accomplishment and as far as I'm concerned the best strategic move you can make--you can't
Corndogger
05/20/16 06:31 PM
xx * That is not an individual accomplishment, nor is it strategic. If anything, it just taints the narrative of her "underdog" storyline. NT
ScottySayz
05/21/16 02:38 AM
xx * Yeah, working to make sure your tribe stays strong and that bonds are tight is not an individual accomplishment. NT
Corndogger
05/21/16 12:30 PM
xx * Caleb won the challenges; Tai and Caleb did the most around camp. Michelle benefitted by being born a female so she could be part of the women's
robin0
05/21/16 01:11 PM
xx * I recall the girls being a big part of some of those challenge wins. Michele was on the bottom of the girls' alliance because Julia & Anna bonded
Corndogger
05/21/16 02:08 PM
xx * At FTC, Julia said Michelle was dragged along as a number. NT
robin0
05/21/16 02:15 PM
xx * OK, ill bite. What happens when the win comes down to a question "will the dentist say he hates his patients OR that he is more physically appealing
colleenag
05/20/16 04:26 PM
xx * It doesn't really come down to a question in these instances. That's only what's seen on the surface in the moment. It's ultimately a test
SpaceEVA
05/20/16 04:40 PM
xx * wait wait wait...If Steve doesn't answer that question "A" and Vanessa doesn't answer that question "B" Vanessa wins...BUT I see what you are
colleenag
05/20/16 04:49 PM
xx * The point being there is people thought Steve was something he wasn't, he was a master at playing himself down. Vanessa actually did play things
SpaceEVA
05/20/16 05:01 PM
xx * This is where, perhaps, that we disagree. I don't think Steve's "under the radar" game was as important in his win as his social connection
colleenag
05/20/16 05:15 PM
xx * Yes, we would likely disagree then... looking at the big picture. Vanessa from very early on had built that connection with Steve.
SpaceEVA
05/20/16 05:37 PM
xx * Right. And Vanessa had no idea that Steve didn't trust her at all. NT
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 08:38 AM
xx * so just be quiet and be pretty and a jury may award you a million dollars? NT
Belle
05/20/16 11:29 AM
xx * Pretty much. If you don't make people want to reward you, and you bring a nice person to the final, you lose. There's no rule book that details a
trifecta
05/20/16 11:45 AM
xx * That's why Tai was correct on wanting Michelle out at F5. So I laughed when Audrey said she was on the right side of every vote. You would have been
CougarSpy
05/20/16 05:05 PM
xx * Yep. Even though Aubry feared Michele's social game she totally underestimated her challenge abilities and it probably cost her the game. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 06:34 PM
xx * So punish game play and reward doing nothing. And if the jury wants to vote based on who is tallest, there is nothing in the rules against it. NT
Blockhead
05/20/16 11:53 AM
xx * "there's nothing in the rules against it". There you go, now you understand the rules about declaring a winner. Parvati, Boston Rob, and many others
trifecta
05/20/16 12:25 PM
xx * Merit based results are better than random results.
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:00 PM
xx * Voting for the best game has never been what Survivor is. Some players choose to vote that way, some don't. Again, the trick is to vote people out
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 08:49 AM
xx * I didn't say they make sure the overall fan favorite wins, they just make sure that they don't have a fan hated player like Maggie. Name one winner
trifecta
05/20/16 02:45 PM
xx * Andy o-oNT
colleenag
05/20/16 03:31 PM
xx * Adam o-o NT
colleenag
05/20/16 03:29 PM
xx * Adam was well liked at the time and Andy was middle of the pack in a group of very unlikable contestants. I'm not saying they manipulate from the
trifecta
05/20/16 04:33 PM
xx * Andy was very much hated, by me for one. Adam was a bum. Both were not "fan favs" imho NT
colleenag
05/20/16 04:36 PM
xx * I don't think Andy was hated until he started badmouthing Elissa. NT
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 08:51 AM
xx * He was hated before that because he was team Amanda NT
FurlessBat
06/11/16 08:55 AM
xx * Maybe not liked, but not hated either. NT
FurnitureAlliance
06/11/16 09:04 AM
xx * Yep. That's when it started for me. I didn't care for him in the game but once he started saying those filthy things about her and stuff about
colleenag
06/11/16 08:54 AM
xx * But Andy is loved now. It would be a travesty if they did All Stars 2 without him. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 10:37 PM
xx * They weren't liked by the majority of Jokers. NT
robin0
05/20/16 05:06 PM
xx * Here's what you said, "since season 6 when BB decided they needed to make every winner a fan favorite to keep their audience" NT
Blockhead
05/20/16 02:48 PM
xx * "A fan favorite" not the "the top fan favorite". There is a difference. NT
trifecta
05/20/16 02:59 PM
xx * No one said you said "the top fan favorite"...just "a fan favorite"...? NT
colleenag
05/20/16 03:05 PM
xx * Blockhead insinuated that I did when debating back that if my theory was true, why didn't Janelle or Jeff ever win. Bottom of following post:
trifecta
05/20/16 03:34 PM
xx * Blockhead just helped shape your definition of "fan fav"... most of us when we hear "fav" we think the winner of AFP. NT
colleenag
05/20/16 03:37 PM
xx * Okay, well just to clarify, when I used the term, I only meant someone that was liked by the majority, unlike Maggie or Natalie(which by the way
trifecta
05/20/16 03:44 PM
xx * BTW, has anybody noticed the physical resemblance between Allison Grodner and Debbie Wasserman Schultz? Kind of ironic since both make their living
trifecta
05/20/16 03:51 PM
xx * They can even use skittles. NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:21 PM
xx * because belle didn't like jani NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:02 PM
xx * I thought Belle liked Jani.....
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:04 PM
xx * ack NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:06 PM
xx * Belle and I sadly disagreed on my Jani love, ha NT
wyndycty
05/20/16 01:37 PM
xx * Except that Michele didn't do nothing. Unless you think the game is only about who's leading the scheming to evict people.
JAF
05/20/16 12:03 PM
xx * Michele was marginally better than Aubry in comps. Aubry the game since at least the merge. There's nothing to indicate that Michele had a better
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:08 PM
xx * Here's a perfect example of where Aubry pissed someone off and it doesn't involve Jason, Scot or Julia. Her threatening to cut Neal's throat in his
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:39 PM
xx * Neal did not say that.
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:45 PM
xx * So he didn't say when he was asleep but he definitely said the rest and that's why he didn't give Aubry his HII. Or are you claiming his initial
Corndogger
05/20/16 10:13 PM
xx * This is Neal's initial tweet about his HII that he made the night his boot episode aired. Aubry's threat was not a smart move.
Corndogger
05/20/16 10:23 PM
xx * Still doesn't say anything about slitting his throat in his sleep. NT
robin0
05/20/16 10:30 PM
xx * See two posts above. I can't remember EVERYTHING verbatim! lol Point is what Aub said did hurt her in that situation. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 10:34 PM
xx * I wonder if Aubry had that idol how much it would have helped her. She got to f3 without it. NT
robin0
05/20/16 10:45 PM
xx * Would depend on how and if she used it. HII and power use this season was very poor as far as I'm concerned. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 11:56 PM
xx * Yeah, all 3 idols went out in pockets. Super idol never used. Advantage wasted. NT
robin0
05/21/16 04:21 AM
xx * IA with that. NT
robin0
05/20/16 10:44 PM
xx * Neal said that on Twitter and I believe elsewhere. What you are quoting below sounds like revisionist history. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 02:05 PM
xx * Here's a search of Neal's twitter feed for the term "sleep"
Blockhead
05/20/16 02:10 PM
xx * Lol yes, because it is much more reasonable to think Aubrey was being literal about cutting Neal's throat. NT
TheFly
05/20/16 02:09 PM
xx * if it happened why was it never refereed to? NT
Belle
05/20/16 02:08 PM
xx * Here's another interview saying the same thing
Blockhead
05/20/16 02:08 PM
xx * So what was in the jacket? NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:47 PM
xx * That I don't know. He didn't say and neither did Aubry. NT
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:48 PM
xx * I assumed it was the "threat" of an idol being passed? NT
colleenag
05/20/16 02:06 PM
xx * Good point NT
robin0
05/20/16 02:49 PM
xx * and a perfect example of production messing with us. I've heard the story why didn't it get shown on TV if Aubry was a horrible person show us
Belle
05/20/16 01:40 PM
xx * and why did Aubry want to cut Neal's throat? Is it just a rumor? NT
colleenag
05/20/16 02:02 PM
xx * Figure of speech. NT
robin0
05/20/16 02:48 PM
xx * Go back about two episodes and you'll hear Aubry herself say that Michele is a huge threat because she's well liked and has connections. Others said
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:33 PM
xx * Michele said that Aubry was the biggest threat to win the million dollars and they had to get her out at F4. NT
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:46 PM
xx * They should have listened to Tai when he cast his 2 votes for Michelle. NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:41 PM
xx * Aubry won one individual or team (after the merge) challenge & Michele won four. Michele also won when she had to. She's was much better at comps. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:28 PM
xx * Marginally?!? Not even close. Aubry won just ONE reward comp post-merge, plus a 1-on-1 fire challenge against Cydney who couldn't
JAF
05/20/16 01:25 PM
xx * So Michele gets credit for group wins but was she an integral part of the wins? Was Aubry the reason why her teams lost?
Blockhead
05/20/16 01:38 PM
xx * Fine, subtract the 2 group wins and it's still 4 to 2. Really more like 4 to 1.3, if we're downgrading for degree of difficulty.
JAF
05/20/16 02:39 PM
xx * Maybe Michele would have won the advantage if she played for it but she didn't need to b/c her social game had put her in a better spot than Tai
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:42 PM
xx * Michelle herself stated that she was always on the bottom. I don't think that qualifies as a superior social game. NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:24 PM
xx * That's strategy game, not social. Social means people liking you, or more importantly, not disliking you.
JAF
05/20/16 01:31 PM
xx * Well, they couldn't have liked her much if she was always considered for the next to leave. NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:38 PM
xx * Not really. Lots of well-liked people are sent packing. In fact, that's often a REASON that they're sent packing. NT
JAF
05/20/16 01:40 PM
xx * michelle voted tai on that vote because she didn't even know what was going on right? she was completely out of the loop NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:33 PM
xx * that's where some are saying IF Aubry had brought Michele into the discussion to vote out Scot Michele may have gotten her hands dirty NT
colleenag
05/20/16 01:50 PM
xx * Which means she wasn't part of the cabal blindsiding Scot (and thereby Jason and Julia). She didn't get her hands dirty.
JAF
05/20/16 01:39 PM
xx * Then Joe, Ozzy & Rupert should of won. NT
Adamlovechild1
05/20/16 12:48 PM
xx * Rupert did win the other two didn't make it to the end right? that's kind of requirement NT
Belle
05/20/16 12:51 PM
xx * I think he lost every time he played, but he got $1 mil fan fave. NT
robin0
05/20/16 01:18 PM
xx * Rupert never won Survivor. In All Stars they had that stupid fan vote where they gave him $1 million as a fan favorite. Given how bad of a player
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:13 PM
xx * Since Michelle herself couldn't explain 1 strategic move she made in the game, she shouldn't of won. Yes, winning the last 2 comps are good points
Adamlovechild1
05/20/16 01:18 PM
xx * That's what happened Season 1 to Kelly Wigglesworth. She was supposed to be voted out, but kept winning immunity. That immunity run did not help her
robin0
05/20/16 01:32 PM
xx * and IMO rich deserved the win he had played the game since day one NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:33 PM
xx * i read rumors that Hatch got the idea of "alliance" from production. That if not for production that woman who was slaying as being able to
colleenag
05/20/16 01:53 PM
xx * Hatch was from the corporate world. I took a class on strategic alliances in my MBA program. NT
robin0
05/20/16 02:43 PM
xx * did you watch? I thought almost the minute they landed on the island hatch was working for alliances? NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:53 PM
xx * good question...I came into that first season a lil late, right before or after that woman (whose name i can't remember) was voted out and at the time
colleenag
05/20/16 02:20 PM
xx * thanks :) I was thinking he won one time. I guess like you said he got fan favorite I disagree I think Michele was horrible NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:14 PM
xx * Michele wasn't flashy but that doesn't equate to being horrible. NT
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:19 PM
xx * she was there.....Julia said we drug you for the numbers and this is who they chose to win?? the numbers girl? NT
Belle
05/20/16 01:19 PM
xx * That's Julia's version of the story. Michele said she was constantly reigning in Julia and that she drug Julia into an alliance she didn't want
Corndogger
05/20/16 01:24 PM
xx * Michelle kept her mouth shut and when she did open it after Julia was gone her strategic game play was weak. Her thinking she had Tai & telling Cyndy
Adamlovechild1
05/20/16 04:03 PM

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